The Grenades.

Discussion in 'Garry's Mod: Flood' started by Rick, Jun 14, 2014.

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Do you feel that the Grenades should be Nerfed?

  1. Yes- Reduce the Amount of Grenades.

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  2. Yes- Reduce the Amount of Damage.

    8 vote(s)
    34.8%
  3. Yes- Eradicate the fire from Grenades.

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  4. No.

    10 vote(s)
    43.5%
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  1. Rick

    Rick female nipple Gold VIP

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    I am going to make a proposal to you all: It regards the Grenades.
    They're Ridiculous, and I have reasoning.
    Say there's a boat made up of 8 Props, Large ones, the boat is looking pretty tanky.
    And a nearby enemy throws a grenade towards it.
    How much damage does that SINGLE grenade do?
    (8x50) For the initial damage (400)
    (0.5x8x10) For the Fire (40)

    Around 440 damage! For one Grenade! Five of them would be able to do 2200 damage in the space of a few seconds! That's almost as much damage as all of the LMG, in only a fraction of the time.

    Now usually, I do quite enjoy grenades, they absolutely destroy players with larger boats, something that you wouldn't really be able to do using just the other weapons, it allows for people to take out the larger boats, and this is what I hear regarding people that are all for grenades.

    But what really grinds my gears is when they aren't used to take out the larger boats, they're used to take out the smaller ones, the new players. I actually feel a bit sad when I see somebody who is new to the server, spend four minutes making a boat that they are proud of, only to be cut down by a nearby titan of a boat in only one or two grenades, they honestly do not stand a chance. Add

    I have three ideas regarding this:

    Reduce the amount of grenades that players are given, so that the players are more reluctant to use them on the smaller boats.

    Reduce the amount of initial damage that they do in order to stop players from being absolutely destroyed.

    Stop the Grenades for causing Fires, whilst this won't do tonnes, it will favour the New players in some aspects, because the newer players usually don't have an extinguisher, meaning that it will be ever so slightly more fair.
     
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  2. Bayrock

    Bayrock Founder & Developer Staff Member Founder

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    I appreciate that you've taken the time to give feedback on this topic and will certainly consider the info you've supplied. I too can understand how grenades could be a dilemma for the newer players, and so I'll bring this up with the other staff members and we will devise an adjustment to help compensate for the issue.

    For the sake of the poll I will choose 'Yes, reduce the damage.' Although a combination of revisions will probably be the most effective solution. The current thought process with the grenades is that they're limited in range and aren't as simple to aim as guns are.
     
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  3. jeffreythe00

    jeffreythe00 Dreamer Platinum VIP

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    Hi Rick,

    I've read your thread and can see why you would want to suggest a change to the behavior of grenades.

    I voted no but only because I have some counter arguments.

    Currently grenades are doing exactly what they were intended to do. Blow stuff up and just completely ruin someones day. While this isn't real life, I think grenades should still behave like a grenade. If ONE grenade landed in your car, your car would be "gone". So it is very satisfying if you can land a few grenades on your opponents boat. You don't get the same result from a pistol do you? Thats the point :). On the other hand, if a grenade lands on your boat, its pretty bad... exhilarating isnt it!?

    Grenades currently have a high damage output but are limited in range. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I have died trying to perfectly place a grenade on someones boat. On the other hand, once you are in range, you can spam your 5 grenades. Yet your opponent can do the same.

    My next argument is the fires. Fires dont do a whole lot of damage and the timer does not stack, it just refreshes. So fires aren't really a huge deal to me. I usually just ignore them and let them burn because I could have delt huge amounts of damage to my opponent in the time it takes me to put the fires out. Which to me, is the difference between sinking your opponent before he sinks you. Fires to me are only a distraction.

    Now my last comment is about the newbs. Simply put, noobs have it hard. We have known this since the beginning. I genuinely believe that even if we were to completely remove grenades, that it wouldn't make any difference to how bad the noobs have it. Look at it this way, if we nerf one weapon, then another weapon would become the new OP weapon. So noobs are going to have their $#!t pushed in either way even if we nerf grenades, because of the fact they are new and don't have the proper weapons fo defend themselves.

    I don't personally see alot of smaller boats getting targeted anyway. What I do see is, larger boats getting targeted by grenades and rockets because they are technically "easy cash". Throw a few nades and rockets and you have yourself a bit of flood cash. Throw em at a smaller boat and you just wasted your nades/rockets.

    Now, one last thing I DO want to point out. I moderate the server undercover sometimes. When I do, I occasionally see large teams (most of which have good players with nearly all the weapons) working together to help each other kill everyone else (Then they kill each other at the end). This is usually when I see the grenades being thrown at new players. This "is" against the rules and im going to start cracking down on it very soon. Generally its a bunch of players who join regularly and know the "in's and out's" quite well. (Keep this in mind! You are not being sneaky just because you have a non-verbal truce!)

    So anyway, thats my thoughts on this whole thing. A clip size reduction couldn't hurt but I feel the grenade damage should remain the same. Though I don't really think it needs a changing to begin with.
     
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  4. Bayrock

    Bayrock Founder & Developer Staff Member Founder

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    *reads Jeffs posts* *reconsiders that I maybe should have voted no also*
     
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  5. Rick

    Rick female nipple Gold VIP

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    *reads Jeffs posts* *reconsiders that I maybe should have ever made the thread*
    I do however still feel that a clip size reduction wouldn't be a bad idea, even if it's only by around one grenade. That's lessen the problems that I explained previously as well as still having the 'Satisfaction' of blowing boats to smithereens.
     
    #5
  6. jeffreythe00

    jeffreythe00 Dreamer Platinum VIP

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    Haha you guys are too funny. I didn't come here to rain on anyones parade. I just wanted to give you some some criticism because I feel the grenades are "ok" and some of your points were a little skewed.
     
    #6
  7. Rollie

    Rollie Devine Member Gold VIP

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    Is there a way to reduce the amount of grenades' for a team in genial compared to players who are by themselves? For example a team of four player have 1-2 grenades each player. The player who is by themselves has 4 grenades This could help balance the gameplay by giving players who are by themselves a bit of an advantage.
     
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  8. Bayrock

    Bayrock Founder & Developer Staff Member Founder

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    That's not a bad suggestion, and I'll see if I can't sort something out as such.
     
    #8
  9. cornpie

    cornpie Member

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    I completely agree with the fact that grenades are broken. I am finding that grenades are steering people away from large boats and steering flood away from the legitimate team fighting that I love flood for. Now, I agree with the fact that grenades are hard to aim, but they are not hard to aim for larger boats and that is discouraging people from making them. Before grenades, I found large boats were more common and I have seen less of the "floating on a single box of bear and snowman heads".


    Now, me and my friends have been playing flood for a very long time. We are going on nearly two years now. I have observed what the grenades have done to the community and personally believe that grenades being nerfed would be in divinity's servers advantage. I believe that the bottom line is that grenades are discouraging people from building large boats and encouraging people to build the dinky single prop boat over a very large boat or an expensive boat.


    Now I also respect JeffreytheOO’s opinion. I am actually very fond of JeffreytheOO due to a situation on the server where some people decided to report me for my boat design (despite being within the rules) and Jeffrey approved of my design. This was probably because me and Gregthegamer have won the past 10 0r so rounds. Who again actually has JeffreytheOO on his friends list. The problem remains that the damage on a single grenade is larger than the damage and DPS on almost all other weapons. Now you would expect this to be balanced with the fact that grenades are hard to hit, however it is not due to the fact that it is an AOE weapon.


    Having a weapon that does 50 damage in an AOE effect is ridiculously devastating to boats with lots of props. This makes large boats money farms and acts as a magnet for all players grenades. This means that the boats that are large and stand out are MORE likely to be target by grenades. So players are combating this by creating small boats. This is discouraging people from making regular sized boats and encouraging the “four steel doors that are hard to hit and see” strategy. To avoid being targeted by grenades players are trying to make “unimpressive boats” which are boats that are small, made of few props or hard to see. Grenades are discouraging players from making larger boats!! This is a serious problem for the community and needs to be resolved to see the large unique boat designs that were once in flood. If you ask me, that is what divinity flood is supposed to be all about.


    Building a large boat is supposedly balanced by its cost. However with the fact that large boats are more likely to be targeted by other players, has already swayed the large boats out of favor of the community. To give everybody a weapon that has such high damage in an AOE is devastating to the large boat design and has almost killed it altogether on divinity flood servers.


    In my opinion fire damage is not an issue. This is because most of the time I have viewed the high tier players not bother to extinguish the fire on their boats. This means that the fire damage is so little that players are prioritising DPS then putting out the fire ON THEIR OWN BOAT! If players are not even going to bother to put out the fire on their boat, then there is no need to nerf the fire damage. Heck, I would even be in favor of buffing the fire damage in return for nerfing the damage IF IT COMES DOWN TO IT! I am still in full favor of nerfing the damage on the grenades and against nerfing the damage of fire. (The problem with the damage is such a larger issue than that of fire)


    I have created a divinity account for the purpose of posting in favor of nerfing grenades. I really want grenades to be nerfed so the larger more unique boats will float the waters again. Unique boats pose a greater threat than 3 prop boats and are focused by grenades and that is causing the discouragement seen in the community. I am probably going to get my friends to post on this topic as well. (I almost feel inclined to apologize for vulgar language for all my friends feel more inclined on this topic then I)



    You can spend all your cash and max your prop limit on the most expensive props and still be taken out by one guy floating on three props with grenades. Grenades are not just toxic to new players, but toxic to all players and to the boat design you see on the field. If you build a large boat, you have greater surface area and more props to destroy but at the same time it is easier to hit. In a game with buoyancy this strategy makes sense and encourages unique boat design over simple boat design. Overall grenades are not just toxic to new players but toxic to the design of boats and game play in itself! Expecting the fact that grenades are “hard to hit with” to balance them is ignoring the fact that this is discouraging the production of large and unique boats. So I ask that you vote to nerf the damage on the grenade! Please do it and restore flood to encouraging large boats over the hiding in a corner strategy!


    I apologize for the big rant of mine. If you want to hear more about the topic, or pose a question to me or Gregthegamer directly about our posts (I’m pretty sure Greg will have one soon) send us a message on steam (Cornpie or Gregthegamer).
     
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  10. Dr. Pit Lazarus

    Dr. Pit Lazarus Angelic Web Developer Gold VIP

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    The reasons on this thread are perfectly valid. If we were to nerf/balance the grenades, balanced by cost and hard to aim, how about adding a randomized throwing distance so it would be difficult to spam the nades on a boat? And/or have randomized damage between 20-50? I wouldn't want the grenades to COMPLETELY obliterate a person's/team's large boat in a couple of seconds, causing them to prevent building large boats ever again, like what @cornpie said. We wouldn't want players to be encouraged to build micro-boats to avoid being targeted by grenades. The collective damage of grenades is ridiculous, you could do thousands of damage to a large boat. But @jeffreythe00's explains that's the grenade's purpose, to explode. In my opinion, grenades purpose is to decrease the HP of the boat, other than completely destroying the boat, so you can finish it up with your guns. How would adding explosive damage reduction for newbs sound? Like if they have under x amount of playtime on server (1 day?), they get explosive damage reduction (recieve 10%-25% less dmg). This could be a shop item as well. Another suggestion, adding a penalty for dealing explosive damage. Some penalties could be losing % of player HP, your props catch on fire, chance your prop(s) will unweld, etc. (Penalty because some say that using explosives is op.) Any other ideas to balance grenades?
     
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  11. LittlePrincess

    LittlePrincess Member

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    cornpie's words are mostly what I meant first proposing this.
    I still can't stand that building a better boat will give you no advantage, because it's going to be destroyed all the same.
     
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  12. Decap

    Decap Super Radman

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    I really don't have a problem with nades myself. I find it's a good weapon to use and can really turn the tides in a battle. I know how to use the nades and it seems like only the people who don't know how to use them that well are the ones who want them nerfed. Also that very very few people are actually making a complaint about them. @cornpie says this a is a serious problem with the community, yet barely anyone is saying anything about it. Now that doesn't mean you send you friends in here to argue your point. But in all the time I've played, I've not heard but a few people complain about the nades and that was only when they lost because of them. They have already been nerfed once, they used to catch props on fire and have higher damage (I think). Whats next, nerf the para? What about rockets, they cause all kinds of ruckus. The fact that a single person can put the hurt on a team of 3-4 people just by using the nades right is a good thing, otherwise that team may just keep winning over and over because the lone players with no team don't have the fire power to destroy their massive boat. The nades do what they are meant to do. I would understand if you could hit anyone with a grenade on the map, but you have a very limited area in which you can throw them. Not to mention if you don't have the perfect angle, you won't give any damage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
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  13. Firedraft

    Firedraft Devine Member Silver VIP

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    Why not just spend the time to make a boat that is big but hard to grenade? Dawson has sooo many boats that have this feature.
    I feel as they are fine as they are.
    Having risk factors like these always spices it up a bit. ;)
     
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  14. cornpie

    cornpie Member

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    But Decap, you fail to acknowledge the fact that rockets were nerfed and so was fire and that makes grenades a completely different case (Although the fire nerf was too extreme and the rocket launcher was reworked). As for people not talking about it, how many Youtube videos can you find on divinity flood? I could only find five. Almost all of which are not very popular. Divinity flood isn't something that you see large forums or lots of Youtube videos about. A perfect example of this is the fact that there are more staff member posts here then regular member posts. As for thinking that grenades balance large player teams, all of the other players (many of them lone players) generally tend to focus on the "largest threat". Which is usually the largest team and/or boat anyways. I also find that lone players won the most (before the buff on the grenades) because large player teams would fight it out first.

    Also Decap, you talk as though you haven't seen the game before the rocket launcher was redone and the grenade was buffed. As of previously, the rocket launcher was deemed to be the weapon that would deal with large teams. However it was nerfed for the very problem that grenades are posing. I would also like to point out that I haven't seen any non staff members defend the grenade. This proves that the vast majority of players do view the grenade as an unbalanced weapon.

    @Decap says that the only people who complain are the people that "lost because of them". Yes that is very much true. This is exactly what I'm talking about by saying that it is toxic to the community. In order to avoid losing to grenades you have to avoid spending lots of money on your boat! This means you turn into one of those players who floats on one prop but can destroy a 2000$ boat with grenades. Anyway you look at them, they are unbalanced. In order to avoid "losing because of them" you have to avoid creating a boat that people would feel is a threat. If you wanted to build a boat that doesn't look "threatening" what would you build? That kind of boats are the kind that we are encouraging people to build and by encouraging these unimpressive boats we are limiting the creativity of the community. Additionally their is no bonus to building a large boat and that unbalances game play. Decap you are completely correct by stating that the people who loss to grenades are the ones who complain. That is because they are the people who are building impressive, noteworthy or expensive boats and that is what causes them to get targeted by grenades.

    For all of those players who believe that these grenades are realistic, look at the distance that you can throw them! The sheer distance in which you can throw a grenade rivals an Olympic shot-put champion. I am willing to look over this however because games have to sacrifice believe-ability for game-play all the time.

    The para is not an issue whatsoever. It is not a crazy AOE weapon that can one hit certain props and discourages the production of "threatening or impressive" boats. I would agree with @Decap when he said "whats next, nerf the para?" but grenades were not always this way. This is in response to a buff that went too far. I believe grenades used to do about 10 damage per prop. Now they deal 50. They buffed it by 5 times!! Did you buff the para 5 times? No, that never occurred and so the para is not an issue. Additionally the rocket launcher has already been nerfed. Not just nerfed but entirely reworked. Bringing the grenade back to its standard 10 damage would not occur in my wildest dreams. But maybe we can get the damage down to 20-30 damage per prop. Even then the grenades are doing 2-3 times what there original damage is which is still a crazy buff.

    I take some offence as to the implication that I would sick my friends on the forum. They are not just my friends but all people who believe that grenades should be nerfed. @Decap said "yet nobody is talking about it" on the actual forum where this discussion is taking place. Additionally, you cant state that nobody is talking about it after pinging me for talking about my friends and others who feel more strongly on this issue then I. After in which you say that I cant "get my friends to argue my point for me". Yet you were wondering where all of these players are...

    The bottom line is that building a large or expensive boat has no purpose anymore. If you spend a large amount of money on a large boat there is no difference between you and the guy on a single pop machine. This has unbalanced game play and needs to be fixed. The game play has to be fixed so it makes sense before you worry about "large teams winning all the time" despite the fact that large teams currently lose more then lone players.
    Thanks for reading my post, I hope I don't come out to be a forum shark. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
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  15. Decap

    Decap Super Radman

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    Youtube vids for a small little game mode in gmod? I'm surprised there are that many tbh. This isn't GTA V or Mortal Kombat X we are talking about. The fact you try to pin the success, or lack there of, of our servers on an opinion you have about a weapon being to op is a little insane I think. You just wrote a small book on why you think the grenades are op. So by that I can tell that my opinion isn't going to matter in the end. What does matter is what e @Donkie and @Bayrock think should be done. Everyone's opinion matters and it's those opinions that let them know what should be done, but in the end it's their decision. Since @Rick initially started this thread, maybe he would have an opinion as well. Mine stays the same, I like them the way they are, it makes the games unpredictable and I think we need that aspect.
     
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  16. Donkie

    Donkie Founder & Senior Developer Platinum VIP

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    Grenades are a shady subject because we can't really modify them much, since their code is not ours.

    I've been intending to make my own grenades, and with the bugbait as a base that shouldn't be too difficult, adding new types neither.

    I agree that we don't have much YT publicity but we do have around 1000 players joining every day, with roughly a third being new players. The reason we dont have that YT publicity is probably cause Flood isnt a very famous gamemode and is easily overlooked by TTT or DarkRP
     
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  17. Decap

    Decap Super Radman

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    I like the idea of making our own grenades and different types. That way we can tweak it to make it more useful but not op. Makes me wonder if flash bang and smoke grenades would be something we could do.
     
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  18. cornpie

    cornpie Member

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    Ok I have gone a little overboard. I just want to see large boats back on the server. The way it used to be without people floating on single props beating someone who paid 1300 dollars for their boat.
     
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  19. Decap

    Decap Super Radman

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    A good deterrent is to build a secondary boat with your main boat. Stay on your secondary boat at first, let people throw nades and whatnot and let that one take the damage. then hop on your big boat an you should be good.
     
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  20. cornpie

    cornpie Member

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    Yes and I agree with you, but that is the problem. We are forcing players to "be sneaky" in order to win games. That is what I meant by toxic in my overly massive posts.
     
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